Thursday, November 25, 2004

Giscard d'Estaing and Turkey


/ ethnography / 101 /
In an article published today in eight newspapers across Europe, veteran French statesman Giscard D'Estaing, suggests that Turkey should not be accepted (for the forseeable future) in the EU, but instead should develop a (rather permanent) "special relationship" with the Union ... The English version is published in the FT, while the French version in Le Figaro... I'm posting both versions since the FT article seems like an edited version of the French (and Greek BTW) article. Whether that is due to FT editing, web editing, the author's choice, or other considerations I do not know... What I do know is that one of the missing sentences is a rather obvious howler:

Les Turcs disposent d'une langue et d'une culture propres. La langue ne fait pas partie de la grande famille des langues indo-européennes.


Which translates as "The Turks have their own language and culture. The language does not belong in the great indo-european language family..."

Which is true, but then neither does, Basque, Hungarian, Finnish and Estonian... That seems neither here nor there as far as Turkey's place in Europe is concerned.

Note also another rather misleading sentence:

"Turkey has a short border with its two European neighbours, Greece and Bulgaria; a very long border with Syria and Iraq..."


The land border with Greece might be short but the maritime border is rather long, something quite important since one can, relatively easily, swim to Turkey from a number of Greek islands.

Despite the rather poor geographic and linguistic competences of the author, one must admit that d'Estaing is refreshingly sincere: What he basically says is that Turkey should not be part of the European Union because: a. none of the "rich" EU countries, can afford to bankroll a Turkish accession, (nor the other poor countries to lose the funds that would be diverted to Turkey in such a scenario, one could add); and b. because it's politically undesirable, since then the newest and poorest member would have a disproportinate weight in decision making due to its large population.

D'Estaing also makes a point about the limits to European expansion, which he thinks has gone far enough already:

The current uncertainty and scepticism about the European project is due to lack of clarity. Progressive enlargement has led to increasing unease. Europeans need to strengthen their identity. No "European patriotism" can exist until European citizens realise they belong to a single entity...

...Turkey's accession would change the nature of the European project... First, it could not be an isolated case. There is already a queue forming to the east and west. Morocco would probably be tempted to follow Turkey's example. This could result in a process of permanent enlargement, destabilising the operations of the European system and removing its original rationale.


From my perspective, this is one of the few politically sound arguments against Turkey's accession to the EU. This would apply however to all interested countries, and indeed should have been considered before the recent enlargment. If you don't develop some sort of functioning EU base (and IMHO this can only be democratically achieved on a Federal/Confederate basis), you're building a dilluted EU, an "EFTA" (as in NAFTA) zone, with little sense of purpose or mission. You also allow for the continuing use of the EU as the "superior force alibi" to which governments turn to when they have to pass an (economic usually) measure that would otherwise be solidly rejected by their societies. However one could argue that, after the recent enlargement, the (Right and Left) Federalist agenda has been defeated anyway- and it remains to be seen whether some countries will opt to form a "Federal Core" of the Union, as recent developments might suggest.

Anyway since I didn't hear d'Estaing complaining about Poland's accession, I think his argument loses some of its persuasive power. Interestingly the question of the limits of EU expansion is being opened again through the Ukrainian elections' issues. If Turkey is accepted, then why not Ukraine? And if Ukraine, why not Russia?

1 comment:

talos said...

old comments


Phersu:

I agree !

PS: It is "d'Estaing", not "d'Esteng".

2004-11-26 17:52
talos:

Aargh… ça, c'était Impardonnable… Corrected! Search and replace will kill you… Thanks for the note, I wouldn't have noticed!

2004-11-26 18:16
Nikephoros_Phokas:

I cannot understand why leftist Greeks do not understand why a muslim country especially one such as Turkey, with most its territory in Asia that is turning Thrace, the Aegean and Cyprus into an area of contestation, a dar-al-Harb, does not belong in the European Union, and are offended and not joyed by Turkey being rebuffed by d'Estaing. European civilization is Christianity with the influence of ancient Greece and Rome. From the Ottoman and Seljuk invasions that caused the destruction of the "basileia ton Rhomaion" to the Ottoman invasions of Europe, the reconquering of Smyrna by Kemalist forces, to the invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the Ottoman Empire and Turkey has been the destroyer of this civilization which it suppossedly wants to become a member of today. I say suppossedly because Ankara and Turks just seem to view the European Union as a way to increase militarily, politically and geopolitically their country's power while still remaining a Kabuki like reformed(as in Turkey is about as reformed as a male actor in a Kabuki theater is a women) gazi warrior state.

If Turkey joins the European Union it will be a worse disaster than Turkey's joining of NATO for Greece. I wonder why all the cicadas in Greece who think the European Union can change Turkey and end bilateral disputes do not understand that being a NATO member member and nominal ally of Greece has not changed Turkey's policies. Turkey disputes Greek territory because it is muslim and joining the European Union will not change this, it will just make it easier create disputes if Turkey is ever accepted, like with Turkey's joining of NATO.

2004-11-28 17:08
talos:

Oh my, where to begin:

As a Greek leftist I'm neither offended nor joyed by D'Estaing's rebuffal of Turkey. I underlined two areas where he made rather glaring errors. I actually said that he was honest about the true reasons Turkey's accession would be bad for the larger European countries and their elites. I also pointed out that Turkish accession would sound the death-knoll of what I deem to be the only democratic future for Europe i.e. federalism, at least with the EU, as a whole, becoming a federal entity. Yet if the EU remains as it is (more or less - probably less) I am convinced that, among other things, Greece would benefit from a democratized Turkey (as of course would Turkey). I am astonished that the Greek right thinks that the power play between Erdogan and the Generals is just for show… There is a power struggle going on that is challenging the military nature of the regime. I also am amazed that you consider it possible to "pretend" to reform inside the EU. There is no such choice. By joining the EU you surender a large part of your sovereignty, that's the difference with NATO and that is why the entrenched political-military complex in our neighbouring country is far from happy at the prospect of actually joining the EU.

See this article [pdf] for an inside perspective of what's happenning in Turkey…

I don't understand the reasoning behind "Turkey disputes Greek territory because it is muslim". Only muslim countries dispute territory? Anyway, on the cultural issue I think the elites in Turkey were (are) for the most part thoroughly secular, and so is the largest part of the middle class.

2004-11-29 00:49
Nikephoros_Phokas:

If Turkey is in the EU, the European Union will shift its center and identity to Asia and Islam, destroying itself and what Europe stands for, what millions of Europeans have died for, what the Philiki Etaireia fought for, what the Spanish reconquista achieved, what the Battle of Lepanto accomplished, etc., Europe will be Islamized. Keep in mind when Turkey was founded the Turkish population was around 12-13 million and the Greek around 6.5 million, these muslims mulitplied like locusts, like splitting protozoa since then. Repeating how the EU will change Turkey over and over as a lullaby will not make anything true. Turkey before WWII signed a treaty with Serbia and Greece, if any of the three would be attacked they would all come to each others aid, Turkey signed the Lausanne treaty, Turkey agreed to protect Greeks in the Karpass peninsula after invading Cyprus in 1974 in return for Lefkosia's co-operation in sending Cypriot Turks to the underpopulated Turkish held territory. Turkey has violated agreement after agreement vis a vis Greece and Greeks and it is poised to repeat the process if it ever gets in the European Union. Every muslim country would do the same in Turkey's place not only do muslims not have a right to testimony in muslim courts, but agreements with non-muslims are only to be held if convenient. If the European Union had any resolve it would seriously condemn Turkey for violating Greek airspace or for claiming Imia, but Brussels has abandoned Greece in the face of threats from a non-EU member named Turkey. Brussels will likely not change this policy when Turkey's position is enhanced by being an EU member. To say that things will be resolved after Turkey is the European Union is as stupid as opening your castle walls to an invading army in the idiotic hope they will reform afterward! Just like you can defend a castle better when your enemy is on the outside, Brussels should condemn Turkey harsher when it is not in the European Union. The European Union does not involve itself in territorial disputes with member countries, but it also does not care if member country's territory are challenged by a modern day Gazi state called Turkey, either.

Erdogan and the Generals are both bad for Greece. Who wins the power struggle will have no large revelance on relations with Greece. The best for Greece is whoever will ruin relations with the Western world for Turkey more. We do not need more events in the future like Turkey invading Cyprus and the United States' main foreign policy concern being preventing a Greco-Turkish war in NATO instead of actually preventing the Turkish invasion. The United States Undersecretary of State, Sisco at the time facilitated the Turkish invasion by preventing Ioannides' and his general staffs plan of attacking Turkey. The United States was never against the Turkish invasion of Cyprus but they were against a Greco-Turkish war; Greece responding to the Turkish invasion. It is a two way street what you said about losing sovereignty. NATO also involves a loss of sovereignty and control and the case of the Cyprus invasion it prevented conflict to the detriment of Greeks in Cyprus.

There is a five year old kid named Jimmy, he buys only comic books with his allowance of five dollars a week. He joins the European Union and in addition to an allowance of five dollars, Brussels gives him three dollars a week. What will Jimmy do with his increased allowance? Turkey(Jimmy) will become democratic and peaceful with its new allowance, instead of buying more comics as always!

"In between the "land of the believers
And the "land of the unbelievers"
The Koran places
The land of War":
the dar el harb.
Cyprus, the Aegean and Western Thrace
is faced today, by Turkey
as regions of claims
and fronts of total war
Constituting a flammable
dar el harb"

excerpt translated from page 1 and the back of the Greek study "Dar el Harb: Cyprus-Aegean-Thrace" by Andrea N. Athanasiou

What you are saying, that Turkey will place Greece outside of the dar-al-Harb because of European Union membership is something you can only say out of wishful thinking instead of examining reality. Brussels shows no teeth to protect Greece today, it will bare them if Turkey is in the European Union? Not likely.

2004-11-29 02:45
talos:

If Turkey is in the EU, the European Union will shift its center and identity to Asia and Islam, destroying itself and what Europe stands for… Europe will be Islamized.

Errr, no. Europe is actually in no particular threat of islamization from Turkey a country where, unlike say the US, it's a serious social problem to wear the Hijab… I repeat, Turkey's middle class and its elite are pretty much westernized and (more or less) secular. That is a fact.

Europe will be Islamized. Keep in mind when Turkey was founded the Turkish population was around 12-13 million and the Greek around 6.5 million, these muslims mulitplied like locusts, like splitting protozoa since then.
I am sure that Turks multiply like all other humans. Indeed Turkey is just now hitting the demographic transition, that Greece faced in the early eighties, it is currently at (and slightly below) replacement levels. "Around 2015, Turkey’s population is projected to stabilize at the level of approximately 80 millions, with an implicit growth rate equal to a replacement rate of less than 1%."

Turkey has violated agreement after agreement vis a vis Greece and Greeks and it is poised to repeat the process if it ever gets in the European Union. Like, how?

Every muslim country would do the same in Turkey's place not only do muslims not have a right to testimony in muslim courts, but agreements with non-muslims are only to be held if convenient.
There is a law in Turkey that actually says this today? Not 150 years ago? Please elaborate… Or are you confusing Saudi Arabia with other Muslim countries (it sure as hell isn't the case in Syria or Egypt I can tell you…) And you're still skipping the issue of Turkish secularism.

On the other stuff, you imply that by keeping Turkey outside the EU and making sure that the most militaristic and chauvinist elements continue to rule, we make Greece safer… how exactly? Sure the EU won't directly intervene in a supposed Turkish border infringement… if Turkey is outside the EU and has no prospect of entering, the EU can't do much. If it is in the process of accession or a member state it can sure as hell cripple the Turkish economy. Anyway, Turkish accession in the EU will make the country less of a US client eventually, which is also something that could contribute to peace and stability in the region, if you get my point…

Erdogan and the Generals are both bad for Greece. Who wins the power struggle will have no large revelance on relations with Greece.

Err, no again. It requires intensly not looking at the facts to suggest at much.

The best for Greece is whoever will ruin relations with the Western world for Turkey more.
Well if you think that war is in Greece best interest, sure… I don't.

The United States Undersecretary of State, Sisco at the time facilitated the Turkish invasion by preventing Ioannides' and his general staffs plan of attacking Turkey.
The coup against Makarios, the plans for partitioning of the island were in all probability, arranged by the US and agreed to and executed by Ioannides - who will rightly rot in jail for this singular act of treason. When the coup failed to kill Makarios and the situation became chaotic, again there is little doubt that the US Oked both Attila invasions.

Finally I can assure you that the EU is not a military organisation. What it can achieve though, through the slow and arduous process of democratic reform, is a totally changed society and a seriously weakened military. That is something that you seem to fail to acknowledge.

2004-11-29 19:54